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Topic: Mac Mini Tests!

First I would like to thank everyone who donated money for the Mac Mini!

http://tinymce.moxiecode.com/images/mac_mini.jpg

We recieved the Mac Mini earlier this week and have done some basic testing of TinyMCE on Safari. We have also been in contact with Apple Safari developers.

Altho we got some basic functions working, such as bold, italic etc, some things just aren't implemented in Safari yet, such as Strikethrough. One really big showstopper we found out was that getSelection() returns just the plain text selected and not the selection object that Mozilla returns, this makes it impossible to retrieve the selected HTML in Safari. As you can understand, getting past this point is currently impossible since a lot of functions use getSelection().getRangeAt(0) to get the currentl selected HTML. Safari developers have been informed of the situation.

Another issue we found was that you can't actually select images in Safari contentEditable field, so its not possible to resize it etc.

Looking at the KHTML C source files (Safari engine) its really obvious that this contentEditable and designmode really isn't finshed in terms of exposing the API to Javascript (KJS).

Without some major updates to the Safari code we have trouble seeing TinyMCE functioning fully with Safari. We will do more extensive testing when we have time, and perhaps get some basic things working.

We will continue to report on the development as it progresses, please have in mind however that we have other projects to work on, and the development might not happen super fast.

Afraithe
TinyMCE Developer
Moxiecode Systems

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Re: Mac Mini Tests!

Without some major updates to the Safari code we have trouble seeing TinyMCE functioning fully with Safari. We will do more extensive testing when we have time, and perhaps get some basic things working.

Have you tested if it works without problems on Mozilla on MacOSX?
If yes, than TinyMCE is 'cross platform' smile, since everyone can install Mozilla on his Mac too smile (the same way as Windows users drop IE and use Mozilla).

Ahmed.

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Re: Mac Mini Tests!

It works in Firefox on Mac, we even took care of some minor bugs on that browser as well, so yes, it is crossplatform.

Afraithe
TinyMCE Developer
Moxiecode Systems

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Re: Mac Mini Tests!

It works in Firefox on Mac, we even took care of some minor bugs on that browser as well, so yes, it is crossplatform.

IMHO this 'feature' should deserve more marketing smile.

Ahmed.

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Re: Mac Mini Tests!

Good news for TinyMCE in Safari?

http://webkit.opendarwin.org/blog/?p=17
(from the last p: "I also fixed one of the bugs that has been plaguing users of contenteditable divs in Safari, namely that selection was being cleared when you moused down on images, links, buttons and controls. This bug has now been fixed so the the selection will not clear when you mouse down on these types of objects.")

Let's hope this fix makes it to a new release of Safari soon!

Last edited by ahoeben (2005-08-03 14:02:10)

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Re: Mac Mini Tests!

Yeah, agree. smile And fixing the annoying list bug and the a bunch of other stuff. But Safari is getting there. smile

Best regards,
Spocke - Main developer of TinyMCE

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Re: Mac Mini Tests!

There's a new version of Safari today... but it looks like they still haven't brought it up to speed for wysiwyg editors yet - I've tried the TinyMCE examples, and it is still hit & miss. sad

One interesting roll thing is what happens after some forms of punctuation are used, like apostrophes... when I use an apostrophe here, the cursor moves back a couple of lines or to the beginning of this text area. Things like bold and italics seem to work sometimes, and not others.

I was so hopeful when I saw that a new version of Safari had been released. Guess I'll have to keep waiting. sad

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Re: Mac Mini Tests!

Yes we have tried the new version, still some major problems. Actually the version thats not updated and ships with MacOSX seems to work better than these new updates. They really did something weird to the selection part.

Afraithe
TinyMCE Developer
Moxiecode Systems

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Re: Mac Mini Tests!

I was just told about a commercial wysiwyg editor that appears to have managed to get Safari compatibility working ( http://editor.hardcoreinternet.co.uk/ ) -- will they likely have had to do a lot of "workarounds"? Do you think there might be something in their approach that would be worth investigating?

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Re: Mac Mini Tests!

I tested it some. It somewhat as stable as our first attemt. Some bugs still persists on their editor, such as lists not working as they supposed to. Format selection not working as it's supposed, it craches the browser some times etc etc. This is probably not due to their coding, it's probably due to the still to poor support for design mode in Safari. I my opinion Apple should treat their impelementation as experimental. But they are getting there, in a couple of versions more maybe it will work pretty well.

Some times I even ask my self why Safari exists in the first place, why didn't Apple just make an skin for Gecko engine like Netscape, the kHTML engine is not even close to the support that MSIE or Mozilla has.

We will continue to try to make TinyMCE Safari compatible, but we are currently placing our first and second priority on MSIE and Firefox since they are 98% of the browser market.

Best regards,
Spocke - Main developer of TinyMCE

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Re: Mac Mini Tests!

Can't fault you for that!

Who knows, maybe Apple will surprise us with much better design mode support in Safari sooner than we think... and yes, I am an optimist! smile

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Re: Mac Mini Tests!

We are definetly not slackin on this part, we are trying to get in touch with the developers themselves (to get some clear answers etc), through the apple web mailing list, some apple dev IRC channel as well as the now Open Webkit development site. Hard to get in touch with them, right now, it looks like we have to submit 5467(or around there) bug reports, and not talk directly to developers.

Afraithe
TinyMCE Developer
Moxiecode Systems

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Re: Mac Mini Tests!

spocke wrote:

I tested it some. It somewhat as stable as our first attemt. Some bugs still persists on their editor, such as lists not working as they supposed to. Format selection not working as it's supposed, it craches the browser some times etc etc. This is probably not due to their coding, it's probably due to the still to poor support for design mode in Safari. I my opinion Apple should treat their impelementation as experimental. But they are getting there, in a couple of versions more maybe it will work pretty well.

Some times I even ask my self why Safari exists in the first place, why didn't Apple just make an skin for Gecko engine like Netscape, the kHTML engine is not even close to the support that MSIE or Mozilla has.

We will continue to try to make TinyMCE Safari compatible, but we are currently placing our first and second priority on MSIE and Firefox since they are 98% of the browser market.

Hi,

We have tested the HardCore editor with Safari and it works great.
Although it is not perfect it is perfectly usable with Safari (unlike
the current version of TinyMCE). Their technical support has been very
responsive and they seem dedicated to support Safari and try to fix
reported errors. They have just released a new version which should fix
the list problem.

Cheers,
John

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Re: Mac Mini Tests!

Yes, well we are trying a different approach, influencing the developers of Safari instead of building more and more workarounds for basic problems. In my opinion a better and more long term solution.

Building workarounds can increase the size and stabilty of TinyMCE and degrade TinyMCE for other browsers/users/developers.

Afraithe
TinyMCE Developer
Moxiecode Systems

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Re: Mac Mini Tests!

Afraithe wrote:

Yes, well we are trying a different approach, influencing the developers of Safari instead of building more and more workarounds for basic problems. In my opinion a better and more long term solution.

Building workarounds can increase the size and stabilty of TinyMCE and degrade TinyMCE for other browsers/users/developers.

That's certainly the way to go.

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Re: Mac Mini Tests!

mmjaeger wrote:
Afraithe wrote:

Yes, well we are trying a different approach, influencing the developers of Safari instead of building more and more workarounds for basic problems. In my opinion a better and more long term solution.

Building workarounds can increase the size and stabilty of TinyMCE and degrade TinyMCE for other browsers/users/developers.

That's certainly the way to go.

As much as I'd love to have TinyMCE work perfectly in Safari yesterday big_smile , I would have to agree with this approach also! The more workarounds you do, the more you have to "fix" when something changes after the next Safari release.

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Re: Mac Mini Tests!

The recent http://nightly.webkit.org/ of Webkit/Safari don't seem to improve much on WYSIWYG editing (though an important (to me anyway) other bug has finally been fixed).

Are there any relevant bugs you know of in the webkit Bugzilla system that we could 'push'?

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Re: Mac Mini Tests!

spocke wrote:

Some times I even ask my self why Safari exists in the first place, why didn't Apple just make an skin for Gecko engine like Netscape, the kHTML engine is not even close to the support that MSIE or Mozilla has.

My god, you really need to inform yourself a bit before making such statements...
The WebKit framework (Safari, which is one of the best standards-compliant browsers btw) is an enormous aid to OS X developers. It offers a great level of integration with the OS with beautiful output and performance. That said, I hope you'll put more effort into the Safari port since that browser user base is constantly increasing world-wide (and your Mac Mini was donated by users who want that functionality asap).

spocke wrote:

Yes, well we are trying a different approach, influencing the developers of Safari instead of building more and more workarounds for basic problems. In my opinion a better and more long term solution.

Translation: less work for you, more work for Safari developers; just another way to transfer the issue to the next person and postpone the problem.
Unfortunately, this is the strategy adopted by many web developers regarding systems that don't have a large user base.

Sorry if this happears too critic/harsh but I hope you'll take it in the right way as I have no intention to start a flame.

Last edited by navisenator (2006-01-22 13:22:00)

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Re: Mac Mini Tests!

It's always good to get feedback on the things we do. As long as the discussion is objective and meaningful.

Regarding the first statement, this statment was focused on the problem at hand WYSIWYG support. The designMode/contentEditable support of Safari is not even close to a alpha I can't even under stand how they could release it since a simple task like selecting content and performing a bold/italic operation on it fails if you select the text from right to left instead of left to right.

But I guess they where stressed into pushing it out or that they needed it internaly at Apple?

Another issue with the TinyMCE development for Safari is that it lacks a good JS debugger/console. Maybe I missed something but each time I get a error in Safari it states stuff like "Unknown error at line 0". Well that doesn't give me much information to go on. smile Other browsers show me the correct line number or even a stack trace of where the error occured. Even if Safari is the best standards-compliant browser it's not the best for JS development, in fact it's the worst one I ever worked with. I think Firefox takes the price on the JS development part with it's JS debugger, Web developer toolbar and JS console.

Regarding the development approach, since the current designmode support is so very limited it's hard to even get the most basic function to work. Believe me we have  tried to make each function to work, but ended up making lots of workarounds for even the most basic functions. The day that Safari gets better midas/designmode support we will make a new effort to make it run better but one still needs to keep in mind that since Safari is a minority browser of only 2-3% of the market it's support will be placed on a lower priority than MSIE or Firefox.

Here are some statistics backing up my statement:
http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2005/De … rowser.php
http://www.webreference.com/stats/browser.html

Thanks for the feedback.

Best regards,
Spocke - Main developer of TinyMCE

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Re: Mac Mini Tests!

Actually I think the JS debugger in Opera wins, its awesome.

Afraithe
TinyMCE Developer
Moxiecode Systems

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Re: Mac Mini Tests!

Do you have a list of bugs that need fixing on the Webkit/Safari side to create a good WYSIWYG editor, preferrably including bug numbers in the webkit http://bugzilla.opendarwin.org? Generally speaking, bugs that are not in the bug databse will not get fixed (as they are not on the developers' radar).

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Re: Mac Mini Tests!

You are absolutly correct, we should setup testcases and report all Safari bugs and issues on the URL you sent us. But the problem until now has been lack of time in doing so, but maybe we will have some more time soon.

Best regards,
Spocke - Main developer of TinyMCE

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Re: Mac Mini Tests!

spocke wrote:

Safari is a minority browser of only 2-3% of the market it's support will be placed on a lower priority than MSIE or Firefox.

Yeah that's the way lots of web developers are thinking unfortunately.
What you blame to be a poor JavaScript engine, JavaScriptCore ( along with WebKit) powers OS X Tiger Dashboard and some of the widgets are really stunning.

Safari is actually the third browser of the Internet: http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=0

In addition, Nokia choosed WebCore and JavaScriptCore (WebKit) as the engines for their next generation web browser that will be bundled with many Nokia devices in the future: http://www.s60.com/browser

Last edited by navisenator (2006-01-22 20:47:25)

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Re: Mac Mini Tests!

I don't blame the API I blame the development environment of the JS engine. The debugging/error reporting isn't that well written since it doesn't report what happened and where it happened. Hard to resolve Safari issues if I can't even know where and what they are. smile There must be a better way of debuging stuff in Safari maybe some Mac user can tell me how it's supposed to be done?

Yes, even if Safari is number 3 it still lacks a lot of the basic midas/execCommand support in fact only bold/italic/underline seems to work as they supposed to. But we havn't given up on the Safari effort we test TinyMCE agains it on a regular basis.

Anyway, we will setup testcases and report all issues to the bugtracker above when we have the time to do so. There are still a lot of other issues that needs to be resolved for the other 97% of the browser market. smile

Best regards,
Spocke - Main developer of TinyMCE

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Re: Mac Mini Tests!

In Safari 2.0.3 under OS X 10.4.4, 'backward selecting' or selecting text with double click, and setting bold, italic or underline now works. I'm pretty sure it didn't use to work...